Thursday, May 10, 2012

The Doberman: American and European

There's apparently a hot debate in the Doberman world, American Dobermans versus European Dobermans. It's a strange debate, muddled even further by this: there are American show line Dobermans, and American working line Dobermans. There are also European working line Dobermans and European show line Dobermans.

I also bring this up because on Monday, some lady thought I had a Greyhound mix and not a Doberman at all, because her historic Doberman wasn't "like that".

So. Uh. What?


Disclaimer: these are my observations of a couple of years of Doberman "study". I do not feel American is better, or European is better, or working is better, or show is better. The Doberman that one chooses is the Doberman that is the best for them. When looking for a dog, different people look for different things. These are all still Dobermans. This is also a good way to start really heated conversations on Doberman forums. I'm not setting out to be insulting to anybody, and truly, I don't have insults to throw about these wide categories. I just love Dobermans, and think it's an interesting topic in this venue. If I say anything that is actually incorrect, please let me know, and I'll fix it. It sucks to be wrong about something, especially in such a public venue.

In appearance, the American Doberman is frequently a bit taller, and a bit lighter boned. Their heads are a bit less blocky. They tend to have the longer ear crops; indeed, in some European countries (and others) it is now illegal to crop and dock. People who are "pro Euro" and detractors of the American dogs say that they're too leggy, too light of bone, and disposition wise, they say that these are dogs that cannot work. American detractors of Euro Dobermans say that they're "fat", too heavy of bone, have heads that are too square, have females that have very male heads, etc.

The European Doberman, depending on the country and on the breeder, is a working dog first. I read somewhere that in Germany, to have a registered litter, the dogs used to at least have passed the temperament test that then allows them to test for Schutzhund titles. I'm not sure if this would have been before or after conformation titles, or if this is even true, but I do like the idea that a dog that is titled front and back (i.e., has conformation championship and working titles) is more likely produce better dogs. 

I downloaded the Dobermann standard from the FCI website; in the United States, we have the AKC (American Kennel Club) and the rest of the world (depending) seems to use the FCI, which is the Fédération Cynologique Internationale. Really, the two standards agree on a lot. The head must be a blunt, dry wedge. The Doberman is a medium sized breed. The croup shouldn't be too pronounced, the dog should be square and proportional. The tuck up is specifically mentioned in both as well. There isn't much detail yet in the FCI standard as to what a natural tail should be like, though it does mention that natural ears should be close against the cheek.


So, what's the controversy here? Appearance wise, there should be only so much allowable variation within the standard. As a medium sized working dog, not much can be exaggerated without compromising that point. The hindquarters of the Doberman will never (God willing and reason prevailing) go froggy like that of the American show line German Shepherd (maybe show lines are getting like this in other countries as well, I confess I have no idea).

It is a disqualifying fault in the FCI for "Fearful, nervous, and aggressive animals". In the AKC "the judge shall dismiss from the ring any shy or vicious Doberman." Height is not a DQ in the AKC, though it is in the FCI (though I imagine you still lose points). "Dogs of a not allowed color" is also a disqualification in the AKC, as the only four colors allowed are Black, Red, Fawn, Blue (This is so far as conformation goes; Albino Dobermans are allowed in performance events such as Agility and Obedience). In the FCI, it seems that Black and Red are the allowed colors; maybe one of my non-American readers can clarify that for me?

In pictures, I've seen both American Dobermans and European ones that are just breathtaking. I've also seen American Dobermans working (again, online) and that have Schutzhund titles. There are definitely breeders who want a working dog, even stateside. There are also some breeders in the US who imported their original breeding dogs from Europe, and have maintained that European line. So, again, it's a matter of what you're looking for.

Elka has a lot of European dogs in her pedigree who are titled front and back. Notably, Franckenhorst kennels features in, with her great-great-grandmother being Dea Dolores Vom Franckenhorst. There is also van Neerlands Stam in a couple of places. So, the good dogs are there in her pedigree, anyway, and for the most part, they're from Europe.

So I guess I haven't really cleared up the argument. Really, I don't get the controversy, but I guess I don't know enough about it, and depending, people don't discuss it on message boards long enough (and rationally enough) for me to get a clue. So I get "Euro dogs are fat" and "American dogs can't work", both of which aren't true. I will continue to believe that both "types" of dog are all right, depending on what your need and preference is, and leave it at that.



22 comments:

  1. Great post! Very informative! I just wonder whether there are also Bicontinental Dobermans :)

    Loved the photo at the end. What a sweetheart!

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    1. Oh, there might be! I've heard that South American Dobermans are yet a third category, just a smaller overall population than American and European. Maybe they cut the difference?

      Thanks! Once in awhile, I luck out and get good pictures of her. It's my fault, not hers ^^

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  2. Very interesting. This debate sounds familiar, except substitute retrievers. If you look at show (British style) Labs vs. field labs, you would see a huge difference. Then look at show Goldens vs. field Goldens. The differences can be a hot topic on retriever forums just like the Dode debate on those forums. Chessies have a similar debate...show vs. field, (although you could not necessarily tell to look at them). I cannot tell you the number of times people have told us that our "show" dogs could not do field work...lol. But seriously, I do think it is a shame when breeds "split" working vs. show. It does a disservice to the breed imo. Show breeders should pay attention to working ability of a working breed and working dog breeders should pay attention to structure and movement. Sadly that is not always the case.

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    1. Unfortunately, I think it's common ground to be trod in every dog breed. I wonder if there's any breed where everybody is just happy about the dogs? That's worth looking into! I've even heard that in the Border Collie world, there are the working dogs and then the "Barbie collies".

      I do agree, wholeheartedly, that a dog should both be able to be a champion AND do the work that he or she was bred for.

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  3. I think one of the misconceptions people have of NA lines being "skinny" has to do with the fact they see all these lovely show photos of the dobe's winning their championship, but don't take into account, most dogs are still puppies.

    Kyuss is overweight now, but last autumn he was a perfect weight with a nice tuckup. I always got comments on how strong and big he looked compaired to "those skinny show dobes."
    When he was a year though, he looked like a skrawny little deer! He had legs that went on forever, and I had so much trouble putting weight on him.

    Then, when people look at photos of the euro dobes, they may see photos of the dog in it's prime. The don't show their dogs there much, so many photos are much more recent; being that the doberman will often times be over 2 or 3 years old.

    That was my mistake when I was a noob anyway.

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    1. Oh, see, I didn't think about that. A lot of people do finish their AKC championships when their dogs are very young. Kind of funny, really, since they ought to wait until the dog is 2 for breeding anyway (To get those OFA or Penn Hip results)!

      Man, as a puppy, Elka didn't grow all at once. She'd have one week where it seemed only her neck grew, and then one where she grew taller, and longer in the next, and then her head. It was bizarre!

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    2. I always wondered why people were so quick to CH their dog. Why not wait and let them grow a little. If I were into showing, I would wait, get the health checks and then proceed to show.

      Also, I know Kyuss was 28" at 1.5 years old and I thought that's where he'd stay. But by the time he was 2, he topped out at 29". How many of these dogs are championed only to grow out of the standard when they reach maturity?

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  4. German Shepherds have all the same arguments! Show lines seem to be a quick way to ruin a breed, unfortunately. And even with Greyhounds, AKC versus NGA is a VERY hot topic! It seems no matter what the breed, there are going to be people who find something to argue about.

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    1. "I like this awesome thing!"
      "Me too. Except this way."
      "That way' is wrong!"
      "No, YOUR way is wrong!"

      ^-------Yup, that's people for you.

      I didn't know there was a Greyhound debate as well. But really, of course there is. Ah well. As long as they're sound, the dogs don't care what they look like!

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  5. Are you sure she's not part pink bunny rabbit?

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  6. I like your approach. I've never understood why so may purebreed dog people get so competitive about "our type is best." As long as the dogs are healthy and serve their purpose as pets, show or working, it shouldn't matter so much how they look.

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    1. Thanks! I do try to be judicious, even if I feel strongly about something, and even if I'm kind of confused by something.

      While I do feel conformation is important, I think it's because (At least in the case of the Doberman) a dog with a good conformation will be healthy and comfortable, and physically fit. The ranges of conformation? Well, I can say that there are heads on some European dogs that I don't prefer, but I'm not going to get mad about it!

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  7. I find it interesting how breeding for certain types of temperament can end up linked to changes in appearance. For example, working lines of Golden Retrievers tend to be more reddish than those bred for showing (or companionship).

    I wonder if there are genetic links in Dobermans to body type that would also correspond to the kind of work they're mean to do that would account for some of the differences?

    We met a lovely Doberman in an SPCA playgroup we attended. She was very large boned and I had trouble believing she was a Doberman because she didn't look like the slim dogs I was familiar with. i guess she came from these European lines you are talking about.

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    1. I've wondered about the reddish golden retrievers! I've also seen "silver labs", but I know that it's theoretically within the chocolate lab variant, and breeders breeding just for those aren't typically ones that would fit well into my "Picking a breeder" tab at the top there.

      That's an interesting question. If they have a pointier head, do the like kids more? If they're leggy do they....yeah, I don't know!

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  8. I think it is silly to have different varities in a breed, they should all be the same. We have the same thing in Newfies but not as much as in the GSD's.
    As long as they healthy and sound it should al be good:)

    Love the bunny ears!

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    1. I do think that show dogs should be able to function as working dogs, in the Doberman world, and vice versa. To me, a working dog is gorgeous, and a conformationally correct working dog is better able to do her job!

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  9. Good summation of the debate. The standards exist for a reason, as long as the breeders stick to a standard I don't care if they are Euro, American, or a combo. Breeders should also be breeding for the "whole Doberman" meaning health, temperament, conformation, and workability. You really must have all of the above to have the best examples of the breed. Unfortunately there are extremes on either end of the spectrum. There are Euros that are too thick or fat as people call them. There are also Americans that are too light of bone and don't have a good temperament. Personally, I wish they would hold American lines to the same temperament/workability standards they do in many European countries. The Doberman is a working dog and should be able to earn working titles. We have failures of that on both sides, too. Americans lacking the temperament and Euros that are too heavy to clear a jump or wall easily. A dog with temperament can work but will break down at a young age if they aren't conformationally correct, etc. But yes, it is a debate that will go on and on.

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    1. Thanks! I always cringe a little after I press "publish", figuring a Doberman person with miles more experience is going to come here and tell me how I've gotten it all wrong!

      Yup. A Whole Doberman is the way to be. If I was a smart designer, I'd make t-shirts like the "Whole Foods" store, but saying Whole Doberman. Hmmm.

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    2. Hm. I like the t-shirt idea. I'd totally buy one. :)

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  10. I think there's a lot of this in all the breeds, at least in the hound, herding and working groups (never owned any dogs from the others, so I can't say for sure.).
    In Dachshunds, there's quite a big difference between American and Euro lines. One isn't better then the other, I have my personal preference of course, but that doesn't make one superior! Nola's from mostly Euro working lines, with a handful of show, and I personally prefer the working Euro. She's smaller then most American, but she's robust, not as short and long (so less risk of back issues), has higher stamina and a greater drive then most Americans. She's also more intelligent and independent, and she can dig like you wouldn't believe. It's funny, in Doxies from Euro, even their teeth are bigger and stronger!
    I don't like how diverse it can be among the same breed, show dogs should be able to work and do what they were bred for. I loved this post!
    Nola's Mom

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    1. I didn't know there was such variation with Dachshunds! It makes sense that there would be, I don't think anything is ever the same on both sides of the pond!

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